89 replies to this topic

[StrayDog]

I´ve already red this topic http://www.vpforums....php/t12117.html and http://www.vpforums....u...l&f_id=2990 and others on this site, but i never got a real answer to the question, is it legal to play recreation of pinball tables ? I understood that is not, but is tolerated by the major companies, is there a document or a comunication that gives players the permit of doing these thing without copyright infringment, and without breaking the intellectual property of images? is being very difficult to find those pinball tables on arcades, and excluding pinball arcade, pinball hall of fame (williams and gottlieb) there is no other method than visual pinball ( or future pnball) to enjoy those tables and that's unfortunate.

[unclewilly]

I guess it depends on how you look at it.
Literally just like mame using pinmame to run a Rom that you don't own is not legal. Does this stop me from using mame to play arcade games ill never get to play again. No.

I look at it like this:
None of it is technically legal as no licenses have been purchased.
What we do here is try to preserve the history of pinball by retreating games that will one day be extinct, so future generations will get to enjoy them.
Because we don't sell them and everything is free the pinball companies allow us to do what we do.

So technically its not legal.
But if it were an issue for the companies that mame these machines
believe me this site would be shut down quicker than you could blink your eye.

So i guess its more of a moral decision for you

[TheMcD]

The way I see it, it's obviously not legal when you use VPinMAME and don't have the table, but we seem to have a "live and let live" agreement with STERN, who is like the only main pinball manufacturer left that would actually bother to pursue their rights at this point. We don't emulate their SAM tables until they get a new system out, and they don't CaD our rears.

So I assume the answer would be "technically illegal, but tolerated", if I see it correctly.

The McD

[sacredgaming]

Somewhat off topic but, it sure is a shame that some of the coin op companies are going after the same people who are in a sense keeping them in business. The Coin op world of arcades and pinball machines as we knew it is dying. Things like vp,fp, mame, ect... is keeping the spirit of traditional arcade games alive. As an example..

I would never buy a real pinball machine unless i played it first. There are very few places where i live that would allow me to do so. They just dont exist or are to far away to justify the drive and that is saying something considering i live in one of the largest cities in the us. I can only image what options someone would have who say live in rural america.

Hopefully in the future the community can reach some sort of agreement with these companies so we can live in peace and enjoy this wonderful form of entertainment.

[Arcade4]

Play pinball as much as you can.
Leave your worries on the doorstep.

[Zablon]

There's a distinct difference in Pinball vs typicall Arcade games.

Arcade games are digital and can theoretically be replicated infinitely in any manner w/o an actual standup arcade simply by their nature and be played w/o a real impact to the way they are perceived.

Pinball machines on the other hand are largely mechanical. True we are "digitally" recreating them and they use a rom, and some companies are doing this as well on consoles and pc's, however it really is not like the real thing at all. Unless more companies come back and try to "sell" these old tables, the chances of them coming after anyone is rather small.

As cabinet making becomes more popular, I could see a company trying to sell actual virtual cabinets. They would buy the rights to games, recreate them and sell each table becoming a possibility in the future. Then again I really don't know how much of a market there is for it. At that point, you could possibly see someone trying to shut down the hobby, but I still think it's a small chance that would happen.

[StrayDog]

Yeah, i understand that you guys do this for pinball love entertainment and fun, and not for money.
Playing a rom without owning the original, is illegal and technically stealing,. and recreating a table is copyright infringment of an intellectual property.
Ipdb has the rom of all major pinball companies, and stern gave ttheir roms free on their website, but still, is illegal to use it.
So there´s not a document from the creators that say it´s playable and nobody knows if they agree.

So can people freely play with those recreation kmowing that they will not be legally persecuted in any way in any country, knowing that the creators agree with people dealing with their creations, and free playing them ?

Edited by StrayDog, 04 March 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

There's a distinct difference in Pinball vs typicall Arcade games.

Arcade games are digital and can theoretically be replicated infinitely in any manner w/o an actual standup arcade simply by their nature and be played w/o a real impact to the way they are perceived.

Pinball machines on the other hand are largely mechanical. True we are "digitally" recreating them and they use a rom, and some companies are doing this as well on consoles and pc's, however it really is not like the real thing at all. Unless more companies come back and try to "sell" these old tables, the chances of them coming after anyone is rather small.

As cabinet making becomes more popular, I could see a company trying to sell actual virtual cabinets. They would buy the rights to games, recreate them and sell each table becoming a possibility in the future. Then again I really don't know how much of a market there is for it. At that point, you could possibly see someone trying to shut down the hobby, but I still think it's a small chance that would happen.

Um ... there is a company selling virtual pinball cabinets already. There has been in the past, as well.

[kruge99]

Whenever these threads pop up, they always amaze me, and every time I say to mysef, "What? we're having this conversation again? Already? I don't think a month has passed since the previous one."


Best Regards,
Todd.

[Zablon]

There's a distinct difference in Pinball vs typicall Arcade games.

Arcade games are digital and can theoretically be replicated infinitely in any manner w/o an actual standup arcade simply by their nature and be played w/o a real impact to the way they are perceived.

Pinball machines on the other hand are largely mechanical. True we are "digitally" recreating them and they use a rom, and some companies are doing this as well on consoles and pc's, however it really is not like the real thing at all. Unless more companies come back and try to "sell" these old tables, the chances of them coming after anyone is rather small.

As cabinet making becomes more popular, I could see a company trying to sell actual virtual cabinets. They would buy the rights to games, recreate them and sell each table becoming a possibility in the future. Then again I really don't know how much of a market there is for it. At that point, you could possibly see someone trying to shut down the hobby, but I still think it's a small chance that would happen.

Um ... there is a company selling virtual pinball cabinets already. There has been in the past, as well.

I know you make/sell cabinets. What I"m talking about goes a step beyond that and maybe I wasn't clear on that. Unless you are saying there's a company out there buying up the rights to old pinball games and then recreating those tables to sell in virtual cabinets they also create and sell, then no, it's not the same thing I'm talking about. I know there was what? Ultrapin? But those were originals weren't they? The key thing I was referring to though was the purchasing of the sole rights of the tables. How they recreate them I suppose is hypothetical, it's just a matter if they want to stop anyone else from freely distributing such likenesses.

Whenever these threads pop up, they always amaze me, and every time I say to mysef, "What? we're having this conversation again? Already? I don't think a month has passed since the previous one."


Best Regards,
Todd.

It's very much in the news right now. Of course it's going to keep coming up...

Edited by Zablon, 04 March 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[Itchigo]

To me even if it's originals sold on a cab- it's still my work! No different to me than if my tables used roms. If anyone should benefit from my work it should be me. Since it's freeware obviously that's impossible so just add to the download numbers. More importantly here what's important is they're NOT being sold. The minute someone gets an idea that money can be made, it'll be the end of us. We survive because there is nothing to be made because they are not sold and we police ourselves to this end.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

Ultrapin came with fully licenced roms not originals at all
and vp9 is pretty much just the ultrapin version that global VR used.

Here is the flyer for globalVR's Ultrapin Cab

Attached Files

•  332000101.jpg   328.21KB   60 downloads

[StevOz]

It's not illegal, this being a possible breach of civil law, not criminal, which has never been tested at trial, that could very well be argued as fair use for historical and educational purposes. So there is no case to answer at this point in time.

Edited by StevOz, 06 March 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[Arcade4]

Anyone who is a afraid the police will be knocking on their door from playing with a pinball ROM needs to have their head examined.
Have you never been told "not to look a gift horse in the mouth" before?
Just take a deep breath and Play pinball. Watch your stress level go down.

[oldskoolgamer]

I'm just interested in NOT trying to understand it. Noah is taking care of it for us all and we just need to know how to install VP and roms and play pinball.

Cheers.

Edited by oldskoolgamer, 06 March 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[faralos]

put it this way, how many football fans here actually get the written permission of the NFL
and the teams themselves before taping a game? Same thing here really
you gotta' ask permission AND GET IT before trying to even copy and post any thing we make
(pins whether Romless or not)
much less trying to sell a freeware program which is what vp is

[Centrox]

Did I miss something, or did StrayDog just call us all criminals and copyright thieves? I'm not sure what the point of his thread is. If you feel as though playing these tables puts you in some moral or legal dilemma, I would urge you to delete everything and move on. Everything that happens on this site is out in the open. Please don't make us out to be some pirate warez site. We are just a bunch of people who enjoy an almost extinct form of entertainment.

Now, if anyone needs me I'll be busy taking bread from the mouths of Gary Stern's children.

[maceman]

Just take a deep breath and Play pinball. Watch your stress level go down.

..you haven't seen me play pinball yet

[sacredgaming]

Now, if anyone needs me I'll be busy taking bread from the mouths of Gary Stern's children.

+1 that is fantastic!

[JAM0]

StrayDog, if you think it is illegal then scoot.